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JJM43019 · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 21

Good day all. Today I attended a short lecture by Steven Pressfield, Author of Gates of Fire. The topic of that lecture was on Tribalism in the Middle East and basically throughout the world and what the Marine Corps can glean from his studies. According to the author the basic difference from Alexander and the Afghan peoples of those times (the focus of the Gates of Fire book) is between Nationhood and tribal identity.

Tribal societies rarely look to conquer vast lands and are more likely to depend upon small raids. Further per the author, the tribal society is based around the ancient sense of the tribe over the individual but the individual has a greater sense of security in the tribal system as there is no questioning of ideas presented to him. The tribe member knows his place in the world, his relation to people inside and outside his tribe, the happenings of life, death and structured lifestyle, he even has a great sense of social justice as the member may appeal to councils and chiefs.

On the other end of the spectrum, the nation is composed of individuals (citizens), who have a sense of self over that of the tribe’s small close network, which is usually composed of blood relations. This nation has a sense of ideal, and is more based in the here and now looking to conquer great spans of land. For the citizen, events decades ago can easily be forgotten or forgive while those same events would linger in the tribe members’ mind for centuries to millennia. The citizen is more accepting of differences and has a sense of fair play not only for citizens but also foreigners; where as the tribe member only has a sense of fair play for those in his tribe and often will cheat when it comes to relations with outsiders for the stranger is not of “The People” (how tribal names often are translated literally).

Now if we were to put these rough summarizations into the context of Roman Legion, what type of society would Rome be? Obviously we have the elements of nationhood for we have citizenship, representation, and ambitions of conquest. However, we also have the elements of a tribal society in the forms of Gens, parties, and the basis for our form of government (based on tribes of Rome). So, in my opinion, it is this conflict between nationalism and tribalism which drives the conflict between the Populist and Traditionalist. It also drives the conflict between Rome and most obviously the Northern Tribes. And to take one of his points to make a point here, when a society is placed in conflict “the veneer of nation peels off to reveal the underlying tribalism within society.” In other words, when economic, civil, or cultural pressure increases the people turn to those around them to see who they can truly trust to protect their interests. This is the basis of tribalism.

Therefore, the only true way to conquer a tribal society is to play by their rules, which Vallentinus has done. Show them that you are a powerful man for strength is of the highest value in this society. Secondly, show respect to the women for to insult a woman brings shame upon all the men of the family and requires retribution; since the memory of the insult is remembered for millennia, as mentioned above, the revenge can be generations later. Thirdly, become invested in the tribe’s interest. This does not mean invest in their holdings or even to form trade relations with the individuals; rather, one must become of the tribe in order to win over the tribe. Alexander did this when he married into the Afghan tribe, and others have successfully done the same thing in RL.

So, in conclusion, one of the many aspects of the game revolves around nationalism and tribalism and the conflict between the two. At this time in Roman Legion History, Rome, in my opinion, is a mixture of tribal and national identities. At the core Rome is divided by Gens primarily and then by ideology after that. If it were to be placed in true crisis, the people of Rome, as happened in history, would abandon national identity for tribal ideals. So I hope to keep these topics in mind when playing the game and am sure others could expand upon this in greater detail than my meager historical mind could hope to.
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Apollo Musagetes
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RaeusVitellius · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 61 Location: Charleston, SC

Some interesting points, though if I may, I would be very, very wary of the term 'nationalism'.

The idea of nationhood and nationalism are all modern concepts - dating to not much earlier in their modern form from the mid 18th Century. Even the concept of the nation itself is barely a few hundred years older than that, perhaps first seen in England and France during the bitter struggle in the Hundred Years War. It is only with a modern sheen placed on it that we can have any sense of Roman 'nationalism' - and this idea plays out through us players and has become a part of the game.

Now, I admit, I am an early modern and medieval historian rather than a Roman one, but I believe that Rome's conquests and hold on it's Empire at its peak were built on policies of inclusion - making citizens and provincials take a vested interest in a myriad of forms. Others (particularly John and Phil) can probably deal more on the exactitudes of this.

Although I would query that "the only true way to conquer a tribal society is to play by their rules". As a British citizen, I can safely say we conquered many tribal societies, and I don't believe we ever came anywhere near any of their rules...
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Calidus Raeus Vitellius
Rich (OOC)

JJM43019 · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 21

Your point on the usage of nationalism is, I believe, right on. I only used the term because the speaker used the term. It was for that reason I placed the term imperialism in the topic title but even that does not fit exactly.

The speaker did argue that the idea of nationalism, perhaps was first noticed or evident in the Ancient Greek region; and it didn't resurface until the enlightenment.
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Apollo Musagetes
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445264534
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NPCs: Actius Verius Varro, Brutus Drusus, Eperius Claudius Daia

Wra7hofAchilles · Deity Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 140 Location: Chicago, IL

Well, there existed two aspects to the Ancient Greeks; one was particularism, which was most heavily predominent in the Classical age. This being a loyalty to one's own city state and no one else. This is why we see Greeks who could fight a terrible bitter war with one city and then next year ally with that same city against their former allies.

The other idea was of pan-hellenism which was first seen under Alexander the Great.

I guess you could see "nationalism" in this but that has problems all its own.
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Neos Dionysos - Phil
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